Episode 104: How to Say “No” to Clients
What’s the best way to give a no to clients?
Summary
The episode is about how to push back on client requests, from egregious contract terms to gradual scope creep. Nick and Kai open with a roleplay of a ridiculous contract clause to show the mechanics of a professional no. They then move into how consulting relationships drift out of scope over time and what to do when they do.
Highlights
- Nick’s formula for saying no: acknowledge what you genuinely like, name the exact problem, propose a specific fix. He calls this ‘thermonuclear nice’, it keeps the other party from going defensive.
- Saying no to a bad contract clause reads as professional, not difficult. Nick: boilerplate often has terrible terms the client didn’t write, and everyone else just signed it.
- Know your BATNA (best alternative to a negotiated agreement). Nick: if you’re listening to this podcast, you probably have one. Walking is on the table. Keep everything on email for a paper trail.
- For long-term clients with borderline out-of-scope asks, Nick’s move is to do it once but name it explicitly as a one-time exception. If they want it routinely, write a new agreement.
- Kai: scope creep is a cascade. A four-pixel logo move becomes a pattern. When drift happens, reset the conversation explicitly: here’s where we started, here’s where we are, let’s agree on what we’re doing and at what price.
- Kai: clients sometimes hand high-value consultants $10/hr work. Worth pointing out that their budget is better spent elsewhere and helping redirect it.
- Nick: if a client keeps exceeding the boundary after you’ve set it clearly, let them go.
Read the transcript
So, what do you do when a client request comes in and it’s a bit out of scope, a bit non-standard, not quite what you agreed on?
Well, I think that this looks really good. I appreciate that you sent it along to me, and there’s a lot of stuff that I really love about it. And I think that together we’ll be able to come to a full agreement about it and be able to move forward. And the way we’re going to do that is by this one point here that says that you own all of my possessions and life into perpetuity. Everything else about the design agreement looks like a normal design agreement. And this like little This little like possession thing, I’m not really fond of it. So instead of that, if we removed that entirely, I think that we would be able to move forward immediately and I would just instantaneously Sign this. Other than that, it looks great.
I’m so appreciative of hearing that feedback. Unfortunately, our lawyers don’t allow any changes to the agreement. Really, it’s a very standard agreement. A number of the designers we work with. We’re very happy to sign over all their intellectual property and life to us. I really don’t see why you’re making a fuss about it.
Well, I’m. It’s not really a fuss, it’s more of just a concern. I like my independence and my possessions, and And I’m actually pretty satisfied with my quality of life right now. I would rather just kind of do design into perpetuity. So I’m afraid if we aren’t able to come to an agreement about this, I might have to try and find a different type of project someplace else.
Excellently, excellently illustrated. What I love there is how through this process of saying no to a client, you aren’t putting up a wall. You’re instead saying, hey, it’s a negotiation, it’s a compromise, it’s a discussion, it’s a conversation. Let’s agree like 90% of this is within scope or matches what we’re looking for. And really, it’s only the 10% that we’re trying to figure out here. So let’s come to terms on that.
Right. So there’s two things that happen in saying no to somebody. There is the actual no, being very clear about it. And then there is proposing a clear alternative, right? The alternative is removing the you own me clause, right? So it’s here’s the exact way we can fix this together, right? Here’s the reason why I don’t like it. I prefer my independence. And also, through all of this, is a tone of unfailing politeness. Right? This is the time for you to bust out your thermonuclear NICE. Even if you look at this clause and you’re like, what on earth are they doing conscripting me? Like, this is horrendous. But you instead of that, be very firm about your own principles and desires and values and say, No, I don’t want this stupid, onerous thing. And obviously, this is a drastic example, but you can think about it for anything, right? You’re saying no to the way to say no to anything is to pad it in things you love. And that way it keeps people from feeling attacked and demeaned, and it keeps them from being defensive as a result.
Yeah, what I’ve learned as a consultant, the important part is. Finding that, middle ground isn’t the right word, finding that area where both you and the client can understand what each other is looking for, where you aren’t in opposition or in conflict with each other. So you’re able to say, Hey, you know what? You’re looking for A. I can’t do A, but what’s the purpose of A? What’s the outcome we’re looking for here? Is there some middle ground? Oh, this clause exists because XYZ happened in the past. How could we avoid that? Oh, you’re making this out-of-scope request because you have this emergency need. Okay, that won’t fit into the work we’re doing here, but we love working together. Let’s set up a new statement of work for this. New project, this rush project, whatever it may be, to help you achieve that outcome. I think a lot of it comes down to understanding and being able to relate to what the client is looking for. And knowing what your principles are and where your limits are. So you’re able to say, hey, you know what? I see what you’re asking for here. That’s a reasonable need. That is not a need I am able to fulfill. And because I’m not able to fulfill that need, I’ll need to recommend you turn to another provider for this specific service, or we not work together, or we alter our relationship in this way. It comes down to that relatability, that compassion, and that compassion to yourself. So you don’t end up saying yes or saying a no, but I could kind of do it and trapping yourself in the thing that you didn’t want to do in the first place.
Yeah, and like to be clear, this is not an excuse to be a prima donna or to just nope anything. You should have a damn good reason for noping somebody, right? Like It should be like an extent, like an exceeding of a boundary or a major contractual infringement, or something like that. And sometimes people do that not because they’re actually thinking, right? You have to assume the best in people when you’re doing this. Because sometimes I’ll get boilerplate copy that has something approaching a I own all of your possessions clause in it. And I’ll be like, This is horrendous. And they’d be like, oh, my lawyer wrote it seven years ago, and everybody else has signed it. I’m like, okay, that’s not going to happen with me. Right. And actually, you come off as way more professional when you nope a contract. It’s scary. It’s tremendously courageous. So, yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know what else to say. Like, pat it in a yes. Be really polite. Recognize that if you’re listening to this podcast, you probably have a batna. or best alternative to a negotiated agreement, and that often includes walking, which we have talked extensively about. Keep it on email, so there’s a paper trail.
Taking this and turning it in a slightly different direction, I think there’s a secondary question I’d love to ask here and just discuss quickly with you. So, how do you handle it or how do you recommend handling it when you have a clear scope of the client and they’re asking for something that’s a little bit out of scope, but you have a long-term relationship with them? It’s not a huge ask. It kind of deviates, it gets a little squishy. There’s this middle ground where it’s not a completely unreasonable request, but it’s not within the scope of what you agreed to. How do you handle those types of things?
I feel like they kind of become boiling frog problems at some point. And so I’ll say, I’ll do this as a one-time exception. So you acknowledge the boundary. But then you also do the thing because you’re not that much of a jerk. But you have to do the thing in a way that acknowledges that this is not normal. And that you’re hired for X and you’re doing X plus one, right? Because most of the time I’ll do it because I’m nice. Like somebody asked me, I had a client that asked me to do a thing that was very out of scope for my engagement. And like a pretty significant imposition on my afternoon time. I’ve worked that for two and a half years. Of course, I’m going to say yes. What are you going to do? Say no? But I’m going to be like, this is weird. I was like, I was kind of point blank to them. Like, this is as a one-time exception to the normal things that we do together. If you want to change this for the foreseeable future. Let me know and we can draft up a new contract and a new statement of work because that’s what needs to happen. If it gets like that severe and it wants they want to routinize it Then you need to draft up a new agreement so that it’s in writing and you’re all acting like adults, or you’re going to get burned eventually.
Entirely. No, I completely agree. It could lead to you getting burned, and a freelancer or consultant listening to this might be like, ah, renegotiating the scope of work, renegotiating a contract, that sounds scary. And it may sound scary and it may feel scary, but the truth is, if you aren’t coming to the table or coming to a conversation with that client and saying, hey, you know what? I like working with you. You like working with me. Obviously, you do because. You’re asking for these additional deliverables or these additional parts of the project. Let’s just get this in writing so we both have a clear idea of what we’re looking for or what the additional cost will be to include this as a routine part of our work together. Since they might think, oh, this is a small, tiny thing. You move the logo four pixels to the left and then we’ll be perfect. But It actually cascades into you moving the logo, you’re doing this thing, you’re doing that thing, and suddenly you started off with a small routine scope of work, and it’s just cascaded into a horrendous Boundary exceeding scope of work and resetting it by saying, Hey, you know what? And I’ve been in this situation before and found myself saying, Hey, you know what? We’ve sort of drifted from where we started off. We’re enjoying the work we’re doing together. Let’s just sit down, discuss what we’re doing, what we aren’t doing, what we want to be doing in the future, and make sure we’re both on the same page here in terms of the outcomes we’re looking for. Since it might be Your client sees you as an incredibly valuable asset, an incredibly valuable resource, and their natural inclination is to turn to you when they have a problem because you’re a problem solver. That could lead to your fixed scope of work kind of drifting, kind of getting muddled. And so saying, hey, you know what? We started off from this point. Maybe it was a package service. Maybe it was a fixed scope of work. And saying, we ended up over here with these additional components. Let’s figure out a fair price for this. Let’s figure out what we want to be doing regularly. Let’s figure out what’s valuable for me to be doing. I’ve often encountered scenarios where The client might be passing off, say, $10 an hour work to me instead of $100 or $300 or $500 an hour work to me in terms of the value of the work to the company’s business, not what I’m charging for it. And so it could often be valuable to say, hey, you obviously need help in this area. I don’t think the most valuable thing for your business is to be having me do this for you. It’s going to cost a bit more than going with somebody else. Let’s just go through here and figure out where the priorities are, where we want to focus on in our continuing work together, and where you should find somebody else to handle these additional aspects of it. As in everything, it’s a conversation. It’s finding that area where you’re both meeting each other’s needs and having your own needs met.
Yeah, I mean, I think you enter with the best of intentions, right? And like what you agree upon is maybe not necessarily going to be what ends up happening because. Businesses change, especially over the long term. Needs change, and you can’t be clairvoyant about absolutely everything that’s going to happen, but you need to make sure that it’s expressed in the fucking contract. or you’re going to get burned on it, and you’re going to keep like letting them add more work to your plate, especially if it’s like intern level work and they should be hiring interns for it. You should be like, why are you hiring X tens of thousands of dollars a week consultant for this. I would prefer to ha instead of that, maybe I can hire Ondoor Dime. Don’t say that, but you know, higher in this budget, you know, entry-level person, or do you know any entry-level people that are working, you know? Looking for work at the company and just watching cat videos on YouTube. And instead of watching cat videos on YouTube, I can give them this busy work. Like, sometimes that will exist. And I love doing that. I’m currently working on a research project for a major client where in practice, I’m doing only the thinky work and all of the busy work is falling to somebody else. And I’m like, oh my God, oh my God, a sunrise. It’s amazing. And I have a taste of meat. And I want more. Oh, mercy. So yeah, anyway, give me work like that. And give me all your interns. This went in the direction: No to everything you care about and give me all your interns.
Oh, we’re leaving this bit in. Oh, we’re leaving it now. I thought we were still recording. Oh, we never stop recording. Never not recording.
Oh, no, Kai. Make money online after dark.
But oh, dear listener, it comes down to boundaries. It comes down to knowing what your boundaries are. And sometimes that’s hard. Sometimes, like. The truth of the matter is, you won’t know what your boundaries are until you might kind of get burned once or twice. And that sucks, and that’s unfortunate, and you learn from it. You could draw a very, very, very strong parallel with dating-type relationships. Like, you really don’t know what a bad breakup is like until you go through a bad breakup. You really don’t know what a bad client arrangement or a client agreement is like until you go through that. Like, There is a process of learning by touching the hot thing and getting burned, and learning, oh, I don’t touch the hot thing, by seeing the warning signs, the red flags, the metaphorical brown MMs we talk about. And learning, like, oh, I’ve worked on projects like this before, and it was the terrible project from hell that had me just comatose for the next three months. I should probably make sure I’m saying no to these things now instead of six months from now when I’m very much regretting going down this path. It comes down to understanding what those limits are, and you might not know what your limits are at the start. So, communicate with your clients. Talk with colleagues, talk with other consultants, learn about pitfalls or sort of wrong turns they’ve gone down in their own business and the things you should be looking to avoid. And if it comes down to it, I think the one thing we haven’t talked about yet is the firing of the clients.
There’s definitely a line at which you need to nope it, you know. Like, and I mercifully have not had that line be exceeded terribly much in my life. If they are continuing to exceed the boundary and not listening to you clearly setting directions, you need to let them go. That’s it. You need to for yourself. We’ve talked about that a few times, but in the context of this, I think it’s important. And have fun.
Notes
- When should you say no to clients?
- What's the best way to give a no?
- How should you politely turn down small projects?
- How do you avoid making compromises in scope?
- How do you fire bad clients?