Episode 36: How You Signify To People What You Do
How do we present ourselves to different groups of people? Folks who have no idea what we do, folks who know too well what we do, ultra-nerds, etc.
Summary
Nick and Kai walk through how they describe their work to different audiences, and why the same job title needs different words depending on who’s asking. The conversation moves from social code-switching to the specific language that signals consultant status over contractor status, and ends on the relationship-game logic behind getting out of the house.
Highlights
- Nick runs a branching script: ‘web designer’ to civilians and at family reunions, ‘UX’ if someone asks whether he’s a developer, and ‘interaction design consultancy focused on research-driven A/B testing’ at tech conferences.
- Kai uses ‘I build websites’ as a surface opener and watches whether follow-up questions break toward ‘who do you work for?’ or ‘do you own your business?’ to calibrate how far to go.
- Kai estimates roughly half of all ‘what do you do?’ questions are social status probes, not genuine curiosity about your work, people want to know where you rank before they decide how to treat you.
- Kai’s example: saying ‘I build websites for dentists’ instead of ‘I build websites’ immediately signals consultant thinking, because it shows a deliberate choice has been made.
- Nick sold 500 copies of Cadence and Slang from a single Halloween party conversation with a stranger in Frankenstein makeup who turned out to write for Ars Technica. That is one-fifth of total sales and the top source outside Kickstarter.
- Kai’s ‘Triumvirate of Positioning’, alignment between your discipline, the expensive problem you solve, and your target market, creates a referable moment: a description clear enough that someone can immediately think of who to connect you with.
Read the transcript
What should we talk about today? Well, we were going to talk about how you signify to other people what it is you do, right? Because we did an episode in Stockholm of a few months ago where I mentioned a story about how I flagged as a web designer to a guy who’s a garage door fabricator and he’s like, you need to redo my website. Which, like, long drawn out sigh, that’s not exactly what I do. I’m kind of more of a specialist. Here’s a journeyman web designer. You should go on Squarespace, etc. Right and code switching. Code switching. But like to the vast majority of people, I just say I’m a web designer. If I’m at a family reunion, or if I’m in an Uber, or if I’m, I don’t know, like talking with a bartender or something like that, or a barista, and they ask me what I do, I just say I’m a web designer. Then the next thing that usually happens is either you need to redesign my website or are you a developer? And if they ask, are you a developer? And then I just say I’m UX. Because that is, you know, you’re either a designer, developer, UX content product, whatever. Okay, well, you’re a UX designer. Great. So now end of discussion, right? There’s a huge branching tree, and I’ll just list most of my tree, right? If I say I’m UX, they’re like, oh, do you do research? Or what agency do you work with? Then I go into the pitch, right? I mention who I am, what I do. And the pitch is more like, I run an interaction design consultancy. I focus on research-driven A-B testing. That’s the pitch. It’s a very short thing. And then They’re curious either about the A B testing because bucket of money, or they’re curious about research-driven A B testing because they think bucket of money equals I do conversion rate optimization for a living, which is part of it, but not all of it, right? We talked about this in a previous episode. If I go to a party and it’s predominantly tech people, I say I run an interaction design consultancy. If it’s predominantly like People performing well in Logan Square, who are kind of part of the new vanguard of the neighborhood. I’ll say I run an interaction design consultancy. And then they’ll be like, oh, what is interaction design? And I’ll be like, well, it’s the process of making a product easier to use and easier to communicate value to your customers. They’re like, oh, well, what does that involve? Research-driven A-B testing, right? So that’s that branch. If I’m at a tech conference, I run an interaction design consultancy that focuses on research-driven A-B testing, right? One sentence. It’s a long sentence. I could probably kill off the interaction design bit because it’s a little bit redundant, but there you are. And that’s my effectively more or less my tree, right? The beginning of it starts as this guy is from computers and it’s confusing. And it goes all the way up to this guy knows what he’s doing and is very good at being a consultant, right? So towards that end, you don’t want to like overly punch up or down to somebody because you’re either going to get a blank stare from them or you’re going to condescend to them. And neither of those is a good outcome because people don’t actually care what it is you do. They just want to have a conversation with you about, you know, the weather or the Chicago Cubs or whatever have you, how you’re feeling. If you’re a person in tech in any capacity, you probably either are a potential customer or know a potential customer of either my book or my consulting services. And so you need it is I have a very significant vested business interest to let you know literally frigging everything that I do. It’s a very different tone and a very different way of approaching things. Often, when I say I’m a web designer, people will complain about like the turn by turn on their app. Or they’ll complain about their iPhone filling up, or they’ll complain about sometimes I get like Edward Snowden or Julian Assange. um like geopolitical stuff. Um occasionally savvy people will ask me about China or WeChat. But um and I’m I know A lot about all of those topics, but like nobody hires me to be a consultant on WeChat, right? So I’m more just like, wow, that’s crazy. And I’m going to Hong Kong in four months. So, um, I guess I need to install that. There’s a different tone that you take around all those things. And none is better or worse than the other. But I think what the big takeaway Here is, and we’re going to blow this load very early in the episode: is always be thinking about who it is you’re talking to and do whatever you can to match What they’re interested in, what they’re really asking, and it may not be what they’re actually asking, and to be able to sniff that out. And that’s something that just comes with practice, right? It’s like I’m almost saying practice basic social skills, but you’re all a bunch of nerds, so you know that might actually be useful.
I think it’s important to realize that. There’s so when you’re asked the what do you do question, there’s both, and it can be hard to intuit this at the time. There’s both the, this is a social cue I’m giving you just to start a conversation and No, I’m kind of interested in learning about it and being open to somebody probing for whatever the next level is. So, Nick, what do you do? I make websites. How? What do you do with that? Somebody might secretly be somebody who could give you a referral or who works in the industry, and we just don’t realize it due to the context of the situation. And so I’ve always tried to prepare myself to. Either give an opening or give a hook. Like, if I’m just trying to blow somebody off who says, hey, what do you do? I’m like, I make websites. I do internet. And if I’m trying to leave a hook open because it’s a social situation, I’m at a party, we’re talking about things, I might be like, oh, I’m a consultant and I help people with their websites. And then people are able to say, like, what type of consulting do you do? How do you help? And we could go a level deeper. If I’m talking to somebody about what I like, somebody at the gym yesterday was like, what do you do? And I’m like, yeah, I do internet stuff. And they’re like, no, I’m serious. What do you do? And I’m like, I help educational product creators optimize their courses to sell more and build their audience. And I work with freelancers to help them build a business pipeline. And they were like, wow, that is very interesting. Because it was a full blast in the face of this is what my positioning is, and this is who I help. It was useful in that context because they were like, no, seriously, I want to know what you do, but at the same time, I think it could be a bit overwhelming since When you share the specifics of what you do as a consultant, if that person isn’t ready or if that person isn’t clued into the industry jargon, it’s sort of like, okay, I’m seeing into a different world here. I don’t know exactly what. What do you think about this?
Yeah, and it’s on them to press you for it, right? Like, some people just want to know: what do you do? And you literally give back the response, I’m a web designer, I’m a pipe fitter, I’m a firefighter, you know? They want the like simple signifier, what do you do? I’m a web designer. It’s not punching down to just say that you’re a web designer. And then, you know, obviously, if you know. anything that there possibly is to know about web design, especially high end web design, you know that there are many specialists, right? You’re never, even if you’re fresh out of college, just doing Absolutely everything for a website, unless you began a startup fresh out of college, in which case don’t listen to this fucking podcast. Oh my God. Go back to college and learn more. Um, but wow, I’m kind of punchy on my audience today. Sorry. Uh, we love you.
Please don’t hang up.
Pay us more money.
I’m more about pages. I’ve always been curious whether the question of what do you do, how much of that, and in what situations is it I want to understand my social status relative to you, and how much of it is, I want to understand what I could talk to you about, and how much of it is, I honestly want to know what you do. I think it’s like 50%. Either of the times or of the usage is, I want to know what my social status is relevant or relative to you. Where do you rank on the social totem pole and how should I behave? Should I be differential because you own a business? Should I be hoity because blah da-da, you’re a student? I think there’s a lot of that that plays into it.
Right. Yeah, I think you’re right. And so if you say, I generate revenue for e-commerce businesses to somebody straight out the gate You’re kind of puffing yourself up a little bit too much, and they might view you as like arrogant or, you know, somehow problematic, right? Yeah, I think that there’s potentially an issue there. So, um, yeah, I don’t know. It’s hard to resolve that.
Yeah, no, I’m completely in agreement. What I found, it depends, I think, a lot on the audience you’re talking to and the type of person you’re talking to. But what I’ve noticed is like I’ve been punting on dates recently to saying I build websites. Like somebody’s like, what do you do, Kai? And I don’t want to get into the specifics of like, oh, I work with freelancers, this audience, and I do some writing here, and I sell some books, and I do these other things. I’m trying to figure out how to effectively both signal status, signal what I do, signal that I’m independent, signal that I actually have a job and I don’t live in a basement somewhere. But not get too deep into the weeds. And I found that, hey, I help people build websites. Well, it’s kind of true. Like, I do things at WordPress with websites and I have opinions about things. So sure, it plays. And it usually leads to one of two questions. Do you own your own business or who do you work for? And it’s been very interesting just to see as I. Use this surface-level response, how the subsequent questions really sort into those two buckets and how I proceed from there. Since when somebody’s like, Oh, who do you work for? I’m like, I have my own business, but what do you do? And when somebody’s like, So, what type of things do you do? Or do you own your own business? Then I could go a level deeper and be like, Yeah, I’m a consultant, and this is the type of stuff I do. But It’s interesting. And like, I started thinking through, like, well, the next family event I go to, I don’t want to have to tell like my great uncle, like, oh, I help educational product creators, badonka, donka, donka, donkey. And cause he’ll be like, what, what? Who are you? And that will just go poorly again. And I don’t want to not talk about what I do, but it’s navigating that fine line. And I think you nailed it earlier where Somebody in the industry will know there are specialists and generalists and know how to ask the question of what type of specialist are you? Like, I think of my father who’s an attorney, but Being an attorney, there’s so many different variations and shades in that. Well, are you a trial lawyer? Do you litigate? What type of work do you do? What’s your specialty? Like, you could have two lawyers who have completely different backgrounds and experiences, but could still have a conversation about the industry. But somebody out of the industry could say, What do you do? And they’re like, I’m an attorney. And 90% of the signaling, 90% of the communication is done at that point. Oh, you’re an attorney. That’s awesome. I had no attorneys before. You must do these types of things. What’s that like? And it provides that easy hook into the conversation.
Yeah. Yeah. It’s a matter of just having like the emotional quotient to understand who it is you’re probably talking to. Talking to, right? And you can course correct. It’s not a disaster if it turns out that you’re actually talking to the CEO of a major company that you should be working for. You can do enough research, recognize who’s going to be probably attending a given party or social function or whatever have you, and be able to work the room more effectively. I mean, that honest is on you, and you can absolutely do more work around it. But beyond that, like, yeah, it’s all on you to do that.
Where should we go from here?
What’s the best way to flag as a consultant and not a journeyman contractor?
Ooh, that’s a good question.
Because you want to flag as somebody who is worth more than the $100 an hour nonsense than maybe you, dear listener, might be used to. Yep. What are the turns of phrase that get used in those situations and how can you use that to your advantage?
I think just rattling off the top of my head here, I think using the word consultant in your description is definitely a level up. Signaling that you do have some type of specialty, even if you don’t go into it. Like, if I wanted to give an example of this, it would be Kai’s not just saying I build websites. It’s like, oh, I build websites for dentists. Oh, that’s interesting. Why dentists? Like you flag as somebody who has thought about the process more than I make website. And that, I think, signals to somebody that, oh, this is a consultant. This is somebody who understands the business. I think responding to their question with information and then a follow-up question for them signifies that you both have an apt understanding of the social skills you need for that conversation. And you’re somebody who’s interested in learning more about the person you’re talking to, which on sort of a secondary level signals this is an experienced consultant. This is somebody who understands the business that they’re working on.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And like, I think that I mean, you want to show a certain amount of conviviality and understanding for the person’s condition. This is why positioning is so important, right? Because it’s easier to get a person’s given problems if you. Specialize in those problems, right? And people position more effectively on specific expensive problems quite a bit, specific industries, that sort of thing. We talked a whole lot about positioning in another episode. But if you say, you know, I make a SaaS app for countertop fabricators and you’re talking to a countertop fabricator, it is a heck of a lot easier for you to talk about the specific problems around a countertop fabrication situation, right? having a strong point of view around it and promoting that point of view is hugely valuable. So yeah, there’s a lot of stuff there, too.
Yeah, I think you’re right on the strong point of view. If you’re able to signify a strong point of view, controversial opinion, anything that helps you stand out from the pack, I talk about this a lot when I talk about pitching and podcast outreach, how you want to either demonstrate your knowledge of your area of expertise or a common problem that people face or sort of a controversial or an against the grain opinion you hold. I think adding any of those in into How you introduce yourself to people or how you describe what you do can be valuable. Maybe the against the green opinion is harder to work in since you wouldn’t be like, I’m a Ruby and Rails programmer, but I’m really against pair programming. People would be like, what? What? But. Demonstrating, I think, the common problem or area of expertise does signify you are a higher status, or you are a consultant, or you have given some thought to this.
Right, right. Yeah. So, I mean, don’t just be like, I do this. I do websites, right? Like, if you’re talking to somebody and they could be a prospective client, you need to talk about Things that are deeper than just the work, right? I barely talk about design. I don’t have a portfolio on my website. This is not a brag. This is a statement of the fact that I’m a consultant. I don’t have to have a portfolio on my site because I know I’m awesome. And all of my clients know I’m awesome. And you need to do the same thing.
Yeah, I’m in complete agreement on that. Yeah, it’s interesting because we move through so many different social constructs and different social environments in a given day, talking with people on Slack, sending emails, face-to-face meetings, running to somebody at the grocery store, going to a networking event. You are switching between how you describe yourself and who you’re talking to that might end up being an ideal client or not, or who might know. That I think it is important to think about. I wrote an article a while ago based on a conversation we had in our mastermind Slack called The Triumvirate of Positioning, talking about How you need to create a referable moment for your business by having an alignment between your discipline, the expensive problem you solve, and your target market. And I think it’s important to think about just as you think about how you introduce yourself in these different situations. Because even if you’re talking to somebody at the grocery store or at a meetup or at a friend’s party. They might not be your ideal client, but somebody they know might be your ideal client. And creating that referable moment comes down to Being able to say to them a description of what you do in such a way where it’s easy for them to grok and they don’t have to stretch their brain to realize, like, well, what is it he does? I think I get it, but also. Signifies like, oh, Jim owns that type of business. Jim would be a perfect referral for them. I better connect the two of them. Like a friend of mine, Charlie, reached out on Twitter and was like, Hey, does anybody know any AWS DevOps consultants? And I instantly thought of two people. And so I started the connection process. And I was like, I know exactly who you need for this, because he had described his problem in such a way. That it resonated with the experience I knew my friends had. And so it was easy to think, oh, I know who to refer to this because their positioning is so ingrained in my mind that Even a one-sentence description of like, I do stuff with AWS and DevOps, Amazon Web Services and DevOps, let me know, like, oh, this is a problem that this person could solve.
Yeah, absolutely. I think that I mean, you’re always playing a relationships game, and it comes from random places. The number one source of sales for the first edition of Cadence and Slang Came because I went to a Halloween party at a friend’s house, and I had a copy of the book sitting in my bag because I had released it three weeks prior, and a couple of my friends wanted to take a look at it. this random guy there who was dressed as I think either Frankenstein or Hermann Munster or something similar. He had a green face and a flat top cut. And looked really friendly. And he was like, let me take a look at that. And flips through. He’s like, Do you mind if I actually write for a news outlet? Do you mind if I take a look at this? And I’m like, sure, what news outlet? Arts Technica. Okay, great. And it got in their holiday to gift guide three weeks later, and I sold five hundred copies as a result of it. That’s still to this day one fifth of Cadence and Slang’s sales. It’s the number one source outside of Kickstarter. It’s amazing, right? And it was because I brought a copy of my stupid book for jerks to a stupid party where I didn’t imagine that people from Ars Technica would be attending it. And like, we ended up going out like a year later, something like that. And obviously, I could not even recognize him because his face wasn’t green. You know, like. And that happens. Like you’re always playing a relationships game, and it’s a matter of putting yourself in front of people and getting out of the house. If you’re an ultra shy dweeb who absolutely hates. Social activity, join the club and get over it or get a full-time job.
Yeah, I mean, as somebody who both signals as introverted and extroverted, depending on how I’m feeling at the time, the biggest Shifts in my business have been when I started getting out of the house and going to events, networking with people. And honestly, like, it’s less, it was less networky, networking than I thought it would be. That’s a phrase. And more just showing up and having conversations with people like showing up at MicroConf and talking to people and being enthusiastic and interested. And asking, like, what do you do? That’s awesome. Tell me more. Who do you work with? And just learning more. And as I showed interest, people would show interest back to me. And that’s been incredibly valuable for my business. One of our mutual friends came to MicroConf as actually a guest of An attendee this year, and I was talking with her. And she said, like, just showing up at Microconf, having those conversations, the referrals we got more than paid for the trip. And I think that’s what it comes down to. If you’re Willing to get out of your shell a bit and talk to people about what it is that you do in a way that’s appropriate to the situation and the context of the environment you’re in. You’re going to build those relationships, and from those relationships, wonderful things will come up.
Yeah, yeah. I couldn’t agree more with that. I mean, Make friends. Influence people. Profit. Start a media empire. Call it tronk. Everything is okay. You’re fine. It’s all okay.
Notes
- The Triumvirate of Positioning, How to Create Referable Moments
- What's your favorite positioning (Make Money Online: Episode 18)