Episode 33:Setting Healthy Boundaries
As a consultant, setting boundaries in work and life is absolutely critical to running a successful business – and not letting it take over. You never learn this in school. There is no Boundaries 101. How do you start? What do you do?
Summary
Nick and Kai role-play two client boundary scenarios (weekend work demands, a 4am site-down call) then dissect what makes those conversations go well or badly. The episode is a practical guide to setting communication expectations at the start of an engagement, holding them under pressure, and ending relationships that can’t be renegotiated.
Highlights
- A ‘no’ has three parts: the refusal, the reason, and an alternative. In the role-play, Kai declines the weekend request by citing the contract, acknowledging the deadline’s urgency, and offering Friday plus Monday as the working window.
- Kai answered one after-hours Slack message for a client who could see he was online, and the client immediately treated 7am–9pm as his availability. That one exception became the new baseline, and there was no taking it back.
- Nick’s Draft website updates its footer in real time: ‘Draft is closed right now. I hope you had a good evening’ at 5:01pm, a weekend version, a holiday version, and a ‘first day of spring’ entry that fires the first time the year hits eight contiguous hours of 65°F.
- Nick opens replies to after-hours emails with ‘hope you had a good evening.’ It signals that he waited until 9:01am to write back without making an issue of it.
- Kai recommends Marshall Rosenberg’s ‘Nonviolent Communication: A Language of Life’ for difficult client conversations. The shift it teaches: replace ‘you made me feel X’ with ‘when I see you do X, I feel Y, and my need is Z.’
- Kai runs a small paid workshop before any large engagement. His line to prospects: ‘before we get married, we should try making out first.’ The $1,000 project surfaces mismatches before the $10,000 one starts.
- A client told Kai (while laughing) they wanted to triple their traffic in two weeks. Kai assumed it was a joke. It was not. He failed to push back, the relationship soured, and he refunded the money. He now treats any stated expectation as literal until confirmed otherwise.
Read the transcript
So, Kai, I want you to work over the weekend.
No.
Yeah, I mean we all do here, so you’re gonna have to you’re gonna have to work over the weekend. Well, I agree and every weekend, really.
I respect that your company does that. However. I’m not an employee of your company, and I’ve set out some boundaries for my own business that I found allow me to be the most productive. If you review the contract you signed when we started to work together, you could see It specifically specifies my hours of availability, means of communication, the holidays I take off in. I understand that this is a high priority deadline for you. However, this should have been communicated to me earlier. Unfortunately, I won’t be able to work over the weekend. I’ll be able to work on this on Friday, and then on Monday we’ll be able to see what still needs to be completed.
Okay, that’s great. Wonderful. Three months pass. Four o’clock in the morning. Kai, the website is on fire. Oh my God, we need you right now. Three and a half hours of shouting. Kai wakes up. Kai, where the fuck have you been? Oh my God. The site is still on fire.
Well, we get four visitors a day. So this isn’t really a high priority issue. And again, if you look at the contract, it specifies that my Office hours are 9 a. m. to 5 p. m. Pacific time, and I’ll get back to any messages that you leave outside of that window within. you know, four-ish hours. And yeah, so let’s tackle this right now. So the website’s down. Do we know why it’s down? No. Okay. Well, that seems like a good place to start.
That does your job.
Well, I hear you, and I recognize that. But was there anything that happened to cause the website to go down? It went down. Okay, excellent.
So I loaded the website on my browser at my usual 4:30 in the morning checkup of the website. And it was. It was down. It’s been down.
My next step is: I’m going to figure out why the website is down. And by the end of the day, I will let you know why the website is down and what our next steps will be. And if it’s fixable during that diagnosis period, I will get it fixed. And if there’s things that look like it’ll take beyond the scope of today I will communicate that to you and let you know what the timeline for that looks like. And on a separate note, I really recommend not checking the website at 4:30 a. m. That just does not seem like a healthy personal practice to be following. We don’t need to be checking the website that often.
But what if people are loading it at 4:30 in the morning? What if one I mean, that could be one-fourth of our visitors?
It very well could be, but uh You know, I really can’t control the decisions that you’re making. But when I see that behavior, I feel worried because I feel it’s not the most important area of your business to be focusing on. Instead, I’d highly encourage you to focus on. Say other areas of the business that aren’t at 4. 30 in the morning.
Okay, thank you.
Excellent. Excellent. I’m glad we were able to talk through this. I just want to reiterate again how much I appreciate having you as a client, and I’m going to now go look and figure out why the website isn’t loading, and I will report back to you and let you know what I find. Does that sound good to you?
That is good. Thank you.
Excellent. I’m glad we were able to talk through this.
So we talked a lot about We refer to them as brown MMs. The things that happen in client negotiations that make you wonder, like, maybe this is not Maybe this is kind of a worrisome scenario. Let’s say they get in the door and you hire them, and everything is great. How do you set effective boundaries in an engagement? Like, we just, you know, kind of role-played two conversations that happen. Um, not negligibly often, uh, in varying forms. Um, obviously I played it up a little bit for the podcast, but uh what You know, they happen, right? Clients overstep boundaries all the time. And that’s actually not bad. You view it as bad because you feel attacked, you feel uncomfortable, you don’t know how to deal with it, it’s really worrisome, right? Like it feels bad to you, and they have made you feel bad, so you’re right to blame them, right? However, it is wrong to blame them because it probably came from a valid or reasonable place, right? If you say, we work on the weekend, well, maybe they just always have worked on the weekend, and maybe that’s a mandate coming from the CEO. Now it sucks that they work on the weekend, I I personally believe. Some people do that. They just work whenever they want. One of my colleagues, he works at like two o’clock in the morning sometimes just because he wakes up then and feels like it. And I can’t, you know, he’s not good or bad. Two o’clock in the morning is just a time, and it’s a time when you do something. But two o’clock in the morning is when draft is pretty firmly closed. No matter what time zone you have. So, another thing that happens is people want to schedule meetings with me at four o’clock in the morning when they live in Australia or Japan. That’s not good, right? Because I don’t want to get up at four o’clock in the morning for your stupid meeting. I’m sure it’ll be a valuable and wonderful meeting. However, no. So, how do you say no? How do you say no effectively? And how do you do that in a way that makes the client feel comfortable? Like my friend Aaron makes Keen has a phrase that says, so I’ll tell you to go to hell in a way that makes you look forward to the trip. Man, a little milder than that, right? You’re not telling them to go to hell, but you are telling them no, and you’re telling them why. And then hopefully, you’re offering an alternative. So there’s kind of an anatomy to a no. You can it’s not just enough to say no. Because if you say no, it makes you look like you’re from Braveheart. You’re not throwing off the shackles of the client. You’re having a conversation with them about what works best for both of you. And you’re trying to come to a consensus around that. So, know why, and what to do next. That’s a pretty good anatomy of how you should decline things that you view to be overstepping your boundaries. Because you know why something is overstepping your boundaries. Draft is closed on the weekend. I don’t feel comfortable doing that. You’re blowing the scope of the project. I think that this makes sense for Jane to do instead, or whomever.
What I found is any time so I I inspired I honestly entirely by you have become much more Hard-assed about setting those limitations with clients, both in terms of communication, times I’m available, means by which I’m available. And what I found is Anytime I let those restrictions slip, anytime I violate sort of the rules I’ve set down, There’s no take back sees. The client assumes that this is an exception that stands for all time. So one time I was working on a project with a client, and about 7 p. m. , I was online. They could say it was online because I was logged into Slack. And they ping me and they’re like, hey, I know it’s 7 p. m. I got a question about the website. Do you think we could hop on a quick Skype call, like 10 minutes, and you just walk me through this one thing I’m not getting? And I was in front of my computer already. I actually had their site open for another reason, and I was like, sure, happy to. And that opened the door to them assuming I was available 7 a. m. to 9 p. m. every weekday. And very frequently, I’d get a 7 or an 8 or a 9 p. m. message from the client: hey, could we just hop on a quick Skype call? And that really taught me that. Once you set the boundary, if you give an inch, the boundary has now moved. There’s really no temporarily moving that boundary. All you could do is, I mean, maybe in a rare, rare circumstance, you can if you’re like, this is a one-time exception. It will never happen again, but then you’re playing like cop. So. Really, when you set those boundaries, and I think it’s important to set those boundaries and expectations at the start of a relationship in terms of the communication you’re going to be having and the means by which you’ll be having those communications. You need to stick to them. Even if you feel like, yeah, it’d be so easy for me to hop on that Skype call. Well, you do it once for that client, and that starts building the assumption that you’ll do it a second time. And if you do it a second time, now we have two data points that show you’ll do it. So now the third ask happens, and you do it a third time, and now it’s a pattern and a habit. And they’re like, oh, yeah, he’s always available. Why wouldn’t I get in touch with him or her? So, when you set those boundaries, you can’t move those boundaries. Under no circumstances should you move those boundaries. You could adjust those boundaries. But it really needs to be consensual on your part saying, This is a change I am making because of reasons one, two, and three. Not because the client asked, but because I see the business value in making this adjustment.
Yeah, yeah, I completely hear you. And I think that, like, yeah, the boundaries are for you to honor, right? Like, you’re the one who. Exceeds the boundaries. You allow that to happen. And it’s a matter of maintaining the willpower necessary to actually maintain a relationship that isn’t Like toxically one-sided. Because you let that happen.
Yes, entirely. Entirely. And I mean, in any conversation or relationship, there’s always two people involved in it. And if you, dear listener, or me, honestly, let The expectations I’ve set slip. Well, all that’s going to happen is the client’s going to push a little further. So if you set rules, if you set expectations, if you set Barriers, if you set, you know, these are the means by which you could get in touch with me, and this is how it should be, and this is how I’ll respond. You’re setting up the rules of the game. You need to both play by those rules and not allow people to violate those rules. And some of it might be Playing good cop, bad cop, and saying, Hey, you know what? You contacted me at 6 p. m. and I’m not available at that time. And so, when that happens, I’m going to follow up the next day and answer those questions. I mean, I think you do a very, very effective job at this. Tell me a bit about your, I hope you had a great weekend strategy.
I think I talked about this on Make Money Online before, but basically, there are two things that I do to enforce business hours in draft. First off, actually, draft has business hours. It is open or it is closed. There is no in between. So right now, draft is open as I utter this sentence, and it’s open from 9 a. to 5 p. m. Central Daylight Time. And in the footer, when it goes to 5. 01 Central Time, the footer says, Draft is closed right now. I hope you had a good evening. On the weekend, it says, Draft is closed right now. I hope you have a good weekend. And then draft is closed right now. I hope you have a good holiday is another one. So it incorporates all the holidays, including sniffing out the weather for when there are eight contiguous hours of 65 degrees the first time in the year, which is an efficient Official contractually enforced holiday and draft. I call it the first day of spring. I leave the office all day. That’s it. So I can go out in t-shirt weather. And the first day that happens, even if it’s pissing rain, I’m out. We’re done. I’m sure you, that rain feels great. And what’s the other one? Vacation. So I mentioned like, draft is on vacation right now. I’ll chat with you when I get back. So that’s Canon. If you’re a client, I tell you, look at that if you’re wondering where I’m at. And I’m going to be closed. You don’t know what central time is. That’s a weird time zone where there are dragons in Texas. And you have no reason to ever think about that. So um yeah, it’s uh also um the other thing that happens is when you email me and it’s off hours, uh and this happens all the time. Like multiple times a day. Somebody emails me at 502 p. m. I might reply back as a courtesy, but most of the time it’s not essential, and I’ve stopped looking at my computers. The first thing that I say when I get back, when I begin my reply to you, is hope you had a good evening. And the way I say hope you had a good evening or hope you had a good weekend, the reason I do that is to state there was an evening. I waited until 9:01 in the morning to email you this. I had a good evening. I hope you had a good evening, and I care about you. You’re wonderful. And it sets the boundary and makes you feel good at the same time. And I talk to clients, I’ve talked on Slack at like 9:30 with clients before PM before, and it’s fine. Like the boundary is for you to exceed. And the cl but the you should recognize and make it clear in as unjerkish of a way as possible that we’re both exceeding a boundary here. We had a deal. We’re bending the rules a tiny bit this one time and don’t expect that it will be a precedent. Now that comes off like a jerk. I can’t really do that very often, which is why I think what you said, Kai, The more you bend the boundary, the worse you actually look. And so you it’s on you to specify the boundaries. So you have to have a clear sense of what boundaries need to exist for your own mental health. And the solvency of your own business. Then you have to figure out how to actually put those boundaries into practice. And that’s quite challenging, especially with existing clients who might be exceeding those boundaries really frequently. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yep. It’s a negotiation and it’s a process of compromise when you have an existing client who has certain expectations that you, I, we have set. And now you need to reset those expectations. I mean, the strongest metaphor I could bring to the table here is it’s like in a relationship when you’re trying to renegotiate what the contours of that relationship actually are. And that’s really, really challenging for anybody that’s been in a relationship and then tried, and like you’re living together and you’re like, I still love you, but I don’t love living with you. How do we make this work? It’s hard. It takes a lot of communication. It takes a lot of time. And you might lose the relationship, be in a client relationship or not. I’ve definitely had client relationships go, South, when I’m like, We’ve set up this pattern of behavior. This pattern of behavior no longer works with me. When I see this pattern of behavior, I feel stressed because it’s not something I could accommodate. My need is X. And sometimes the client responses, Well, my need is you’re available at these times. And when two people, be it In a romantic relationship or a business relationship, have differing needs like that and are not willing to meet and accommodate each other’s needs or find a compromise, there’s really no option but to say, well, Because I have this need, and you aren’t able to meet that need, we need to discontinue this relationship. What will that look like? Yeah, so part
Part of this involves a culture of reassessing how things are going. You can’t just be constantly moving forward on the engagement. You have to pause and have feelings time. I actually go so far as to call that feelings time with my clients and with my assistant. And we get on a phone call and we’re just doing feelings time. I’m going to get on one with one of my clients in three hours, and it’s just going to be like, how are things going? How do you feel about this engagement? What can I do to help? How can you salvage it? And It goes both ways. How do I feel about the engagement? What’s going wrong? How do we salvage it? And I’m going to tell them some things that I thought haven’t gone well. And it’s fine. Like, the goal is to get them corrected so they don’t just sit and linger. Always supposed to be communicating as effectively as humanly possible in these relationships and recognizing you have to pull them on your side of the table and work it out together. Or you’re going to be adversarial. Setting boundaries does not involve being adversarial. It involves acknowledging that you’re a human. That’s a Feral meat sack, and you’re trying to create business value for a living. And that’s hard. It’s always hard. It’s supposed to be hard, or you wouldn’t be getting paid as much as you do for it. Right.
There’s three resources I want to talk about that have been helpful for me, and I just immediately forgot one of them as soon as I said that. So let’s see if I can remember it along the way. So, one is the book, Nonviolent Communication: A Language of Life. It’s by Marshall Rosenberg. It’s like five bucks on Amazon. It’s one of the best books I ever read about how to communicate in a positive, non-violent way. Violent communication is saying, you make me feel X. Well, You can’t really make me feel anything. What happens in a client relationship or a romantic relationship is you do a thing, I see the thing. When I see the thing, I feel a certain way. And now we need to process through that. And for me to say, hey, when I see you do this, I feel a specific way. And my need is. You know, to have X, Y, or Z happen. And nonviolent communication, a language of life, is a wonderful, wonderful framework for. Learning that type of communication and practicing and implementing it. I’m going as far as recommending it as a resource for every success coach and subject matter expert in the W Freelancing Academy just because. So often, we could slip into a paradigm of saying, You made me feel hurt. Well, no, I didn’t make you feel anything. What I did was a thing, and you saw that, and you felt hurt. And I’m hearing you say that, I’m happy to hear you say that. How could we process through that? It changes the dynamic of communication. The second is a book, it’s really one concept from this book, Ethical Slut, a book about polyamory and open relationships, but there’s a key concept in it where In a romantic relationship, and I think this applies equally well to client relationships, you or your partner aren’t responsible for meeting all of the other person’s needs. And there’s an expectation, I think, in romantic relationships that your partner is supposed to be the one who meets all of your needs. And I think that leads to conflict. And I think we could also see that in client relationships, and that’s where scope Creep comes from. They have hired you to be a consultant, even if the scope is defined, but you’re doing a great job. And they’re like, oh, you’re doing a great job. Can you also do this and this other thing and this other thing over here? And slowly it balloons to the point where you’re juggling all of these. Plates and they aren’t necessarily things you’re great at, but they asked and you like the client and you said yes, but now you feel stressed and you don’t know how to end it. So I think the concept, like, hey, if you want a really good relationship book. Ethical slot is very good, just to have a better relationship with your partner. But B, the idea of understanding that you don’t necessarily have to meet all the needs that the client has. A client might say, I really need somebody to write a drip campaign for me or write the sales page. Well, if you don’t specialize in writing sales pages, or your business isn’t designed around writing sales pages, or that isn’t a need you want or are able to meet, it’s entirely within your power and right to say. Hey, I hear you. That does sound like something you need. That’s not something I’m able to provide. Let me refer you to somebody else. Which seems like consulting 101, but It’s very easy to have small asks balloon into a larger scope than you anticipated, and Unless you’re negotiating through that and understanding, like, okay, hey, we’re changing the scope here. Let’s talk about what that looks like in terms of compensation or in terms of How much time we’re spending on this project, or your responsibilities as well to your client, it could get a little sticky. So, I can’t remember what the third resource was, but nonviolent communication, highly, highly recommended for anybody who’s looking for. A framework for dialoguing with clients through stressful situations. And Ethical Slut as a book for people who are interested in relationship advice, but also that idea that you aren’t there to meet all the needs your client or your partner has. You’re there to be. A loving person, and sometimes being a loving person is saying, Hey, you’re expressing a need, I’m not able to meet that need. Why don’t we find somebody who is able to meet that need for you? Be it another consultant, a friend who’s able to offer the support you’re needing, or something else.
Yeah, yeah. I think those are good. You know, you’re leaning on each other for business value, but also like I don’t know. I go out to lunch with my clients a lot. Like, I consider some of them to be, you know, pretty good friends. And, like, you know, you can become close with these people. And you have to recognize that they’re still a business partner. And That you have to put boundaries around your personal life. And really, I want to be abundantly clear on this. Nobody is going to do that but you. If the boundaries get exceeded, Either the client is a sociopath and needs to be fired immediately, or the other 95% of the time, it’s your fault. And you need to figure out a way to wind it back and address it and be mature about it as much as humanly possible. Or you’re just going to continue getting taken advantage of. That’s your choice. It’s a choice you make.
Yeah, and when it comes to setting boundaries of clients, I think we’ve covered a couple of the ones that are really important Specifying what your office hours are, specifying the best means to reach you, specifying what to do if it’s an emergency, and like, literally, everything is on fire. I know it’s 9 p. m. , but literally everything is on fire. I’m hitting the red button, I’m picking up the red phone. There should be a contingency plan for that. And I try to spell that out to a client: like, if it’s disaster mode, yes, you can reach me. You get like one disaster mode call a year, and it better really be a disaster because I understand sometimes shit happens and you need help at a really, really weird time. I’d love to provide that support, but that’s not standard operating procedure. That’s really, really odd exception time.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s okay if the website’s on fire. I deal with maybe one of those a year. Because most of the time when somebody writes you, it’s never so important that you can’t wait a little bit. And do it during a time when you’ve actually gotten into the right headspace for it. And that is a self-care routine. That is something that only you can do for yourself. And if you’re treating yourself poorly and you end up burning out, that’s not our fault. It’s your fault. It’s not your client’s fault. And I’m sorry to place so much blame on the consultant in this scenario, but very rarely do I see it happening that like You know, all of this happened, and we started with the best of intentions, and the client turned into a sociopath, and I didn’t immediately shake them out before they came in the door. That’s something that you should be doing as part of your client qualification process, is identifying those issues.
Yeah, either the client is a sociopath coming in, and it’s on you to have a better intake process to identify: oh, this person has unreasonable expectations or does not seem like a good fit. I’m always going to have a small test project. Like I always do marketing growth workshops with new prospects who want to work with me. And I describe it as: before we get married, we should try making out first. And then they laugh, and I laugh, and I explain why it’s important. It’s like, hey, you might hate working with me. I might hate working with you. Before we do the $10,000 project, let’s do a $1,000 project because A, it’ll give a roadmap to follow when we do the $10,000 project. B, wouldn’t it suck if halfway into the $10,000 project we both realize we hate working with each other? And I get vigorous nodding every single time. That’s really, really helpful to screen out those people. Since, like, maybe the $1,000 project goes south. Well, great. It’s better that that went south than the $10,000 project or the $20,000 project Threat Similarly, yeah, just like in a romantic relationship, there’s going to be so many metaphors to romantic relationships here. Sorry, dear listener. But just like in a romantic relationship, it’s on you to set those boundaries for what the expectations are, what needs you can meet, what’s reasonable in that relationship. Are you spending the night together every night? Are you not? Do you text every day? Do you not? You need to set those boundaries early on so you both understand. These are my expectations. These are your expectations. They probably aren’t in alignment. How could we make sure they are in alignment and move forward from there? It’s on you to come to the table with those because the client has the client’s best interests in mind, just like you have your best interests in mind. unless you’re self-advocating for what you need to have a healthy relationship with that client, it’s going to go south very, very fast.
Yeah, I mean, you just need to keep it positive and not screw up. And that’s it.
And I mean, the truth is: like, if a relationship goes south. The worst case scenario is somebody maybe is a little unhappy or a little stressed, and you refund somebody some money. I’ve had that happen before, where, you know, I mean, like, this is a perfect case study for everything that could go wrong. Client came in, I asked the client what their expectations were. They said, We want to triple our traffic in the next two weeks. And then they laughed. And I was like, oh, they’re making a joke because they realize that’s unrealistic. They were not making a joke. They thought that was realistic. They thought that’s what I was going to achieve for them. And when I did not achieve that for them, they were very disappointed. And so we now had conflict because I did not do a good job at setting expectations and boundaries for what that relationship looked like. And I did a terrible job at vetting them and being like, Is this a good match? I should have pushed back and been like, I know we’re both laughing here, but it’s going to take a couple months before we see results. Does that line up with your expectations? And I probably would have gotten a no right then and be able to say, hey, I can’t meet that need. But because I didn’t, we ended up in a bad client relationship, and I ended up refunding them their money. And I’m happy we were able to end on a slightly positive note of like Here’s your money back. We could see what the issue was. I’ve learned a lot here. Maybe you’ve learned as well. Let’s move forward. And it’s informed a lot of my communication and my Prospecting and qualifying process for clients as I’ve moved forward, but it was a rocky thing to go through. And I think, like, again, relationship metaphor. you have shitty relationships in high school and college and bad breakups to learn how to have good breakups later on. Since when you break up with somebody when you’re 18, it’s a cluster fuck. When you break up with somebody at 30, 35, 40, They’re both hopefully more mature adults who are able to say, like, hey, you know, this isn’t jiving with what I need right now. How do we negotiate this? How do we meet each other’s needs better? How do we make this work? It’s the exact same thing in a client relationship. Your early client relationships might end poorly, but your later client relationships, well, you’ve learned a lot from going through those breakups that you’re able to say We need to fix this problem, or we’re going to have to end our relationship. I’m seeing this behavior. This behavior does not work for me because my expectation is this. My need is we change this behavior. Are you able to change that behavior? And that’s really communicating like what your needs are and presenting the decision to the client. Are they willing to make that change? If yes, wonderful. If no, not so wonderful, but at least you made the ask and got the firm no, and they know where the boundaries are. They’re saying they can’t play within those boundaries. So. Well, let’s end our relationship at the end of this month and move forward. And I’m sorry we weren’t able to meet each other’s needs.
Yeah. Yeah, I think that. You just need to recognize that it might have gone too far away and is not a good idea for you anymore. And that’s fine. End it. Save yourself. You know? That’s it.